Interview with Yukiyoshi Sagawa by Stanley Pranin

Aiki News: Sensei, where did you begin your study of Daito-ryu?

Sagawa Sensei: I started in Yubetsu, Hokkaido. My father (Nenokichi Sagawa) built a dojo in order to receive instruction from Sokaku Takeda Sensei. At that time my father was a town councilman and school official and also ran a shop.

Were Daito-ryu seminars held in the dojo your father built?

Yes. Since I was a child then I don’t know the details, but it seems that seminars were held in the dojo.

Did the training last seven or eight hours a day as when Sokaku Sensei would teach in other locations?

I believe they lasted more than three hours. People who were interested came to the dojo to study the art. However, gradually these people came less and less, and my father ended up as the only student and received private instruction from Sokaku Sensei. Then he would go to different places for seminars. He taught such people as village leaders and politicians.

Did your father know Taiso Horikawa, the father of Kodo Horikawa Sensei?

Yes, Mr. Taiso Horikawa was living in the same village (Yubetsu) and ran an inn while my father was operating a store which sold all sorts of different items. They knew each other through this connection.

Did your father and Mr. Horikawa sometimes train together?

Although they practiced together, my father received an instructor’s license in March 1914. It seems Mr. Taiso Horikawa received the same license later.

Did your father also have any contact with Kotaro Yoshida or Morihei Ueshiba?

Both started training after my father. Mr. Yoshida was living in Engaru at that time and had close contact with my father. Since Mr. Ueshiba came to make various purchases at my father’s store, they knew each other before Ueshiba became a student of Sensei.

We understand that your father was at the Hisada Inn when Morihei Ueshiba first me Sokaku Takeda Sensei. Would you please tell us about that story?

I was about 14 then and I heard the story many times. He happened to be teaching some students of Sokaku at the Hisada Inn when Mr. Ueshiba enrolled as a student with an introduction from Mr. Kotaro Yoshida.

In the earlier stage, Sokaku Sensei’s art was called “Daito-ryu Jujutsu” and it later became known as “Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu.” Would you talk about the name change please?

The term “Aiki” is a very old one. It was used from the Meiji period. This is a memo book my father used for writing down notes on techniques he learned from Takeda Sensei. Here you see the phrase “execute Aiki (written in katakana),” in several places. This entry was made on May 14, 1913. My father was 50 years old and Takeda Sensei was in his 55^th year at that time. So the term “Aiki” was also in use before the period you refer to. Takeda Sensei would make a distinction between “Aiki Jujutsu” and “Jujutsu” when he was teaching.

Would you please tell us more about Takeda Sensei?

I first met him when I was ten years old. Takeda Sensei liked making soba or udon noodles himself. When he made them, he would really make large quantities, more than we could possibly eat, but he would still say, “Eat more! Eat more!” (Laughter). Takeda Sensei also took baths with me and my sister. He would rub our backs very hard in the tub, and it was really painful for us. Children’s skin is soft you know! (Laughter)

Did Takeda Sensei have hard muscles?

No, his muscles were soft. His arms were usually soft. But he had really large forearms. Takeda Sensei was a very intelligent man and had an excellent memory and powers of concentration.

Let me tell you one story about him. I also studied Onoha Itto-ryu from Ryokichi Sasaki Sensei. In this connection, Sasaki Sensei and Takeda Sensei came to know each other. One day, there was a sword tournament as part of the fall festival. It was a country festival and many swordsmen gathered from all over Hokkaido. Sasaki Sensei participated in the contest and was the winner. Takeda Sensei told Sasaki Sensei that he should not use the “hikigote” technique since it was not very effective. Sasaki Sensei replied saying that he had never been struck when he used the technique and had no problems. Hearing this, Takeda Sensei told him to put on a “kote” wrist protector and they stood facing each other. The moment Sasaki Sensei assumed a “seigan” stance Takeda Sensei’s repeated right and left handed strikes touched the inside of his lower forearm, and there was no way for Sasaki Sensei to protect himself by withdrawing or parrying. Finally, Sasaki Sensei became pale and admitted he had been beaten. When he took off the protector, he had a quarter-size round mark on the inside of his forearm.

Did Takeda Sensei himself wear a kind of a protector?

No, he didn’t. The fact that there was a single mark indicates he was striking the same spot every time. He also mastered the secrets of various martial arts schools. Takeda Sensei’s sword was very original, and he was highly skilled at wielding the sword with either the right or left hand.

We understand that at one time he was a student of Kenkichi Sakakibara.

Takeda Sensei never mentioned to me that he had stayed in the Sakakibara Dojo. I believe that Sakakibara Sensei taught the metropolitan police, didn’t he? This is what I heard from Kisaburo Tomita Sensei of the Kogen Itto-ryu, who was also my teacher. At that time, Tomita was an officer with the metropolitan police, and he saw Kenkichi Sakakibara and Hidetaro Shimoe of the Hokushin Itto-ryu, who was also a police instructor, practice together, but the latter was far superior to him in technique. It seems that Mr. Sakakibara was expert at cutting stationary objects.

Were there injuries when Takeda Sensei taught?

No, there weren’t. Takeda Sensei’s teaching method was always practical. He never taught us kata (forms). So, I have been preserving this method.

We understand that Takeda Sensei also studied the Onoha Itto-ryu sword.

I believe he trained at the dojo of Toma Shibuya in Bange-cho in Fukushima Prefecture. I don’t think he studied it seriously. His sword was very original, and he combined elements of several schools to create his own techniques. Also, Takeda Sensei didn’t teach kata. His arts were very practical, and he taught techniques according to specific situations.

Did you ever see or hear of Takeda Sensei executing a “kabenuke” (wall-passing) technique?

Wall-passing technique? Takeda Sensei never mentioned any such thing. Once, I heard a rumor that he could perform the “tatamigaeshi” (turning a tatami mat over with the palm of one hand) technique so I asked him if he could do it. He scolded me for talking nonsense. It was too bad. I was thinking of asking him to teach me the technique if he really could do it. (Laughter) I don’t believe he could do such things. There are limits to a human being’s powers. There is a reason for everything.

Was there some relationship between Sokaku Sensei and Jigoro Kano Sensei?

Not that I know of. I stayed in Takeda Sensei’s house many times but never heard of such a connection.

Did you accompany Takeda Sensei very often?

When Takeda sensei held seminars in various places, I sometimes went with him as his assistant. We went around Hokkaido, to Tokyo, Urawa, Omiya, and so forth. Before Sokaku Sensei went to Osaka, to instruct the group of Takuma Hisa, I accompanied him continuously for about two months. I didn’t travel to Osaka with him because of family obligations.

There are many misunderstandings in the Aikido world concerning Daito-ryu. Some sources say that Morihei Ueshiba studied Daito-ryu for only a short period and that the most important derivative martial art is Yagyu Shingan-ryu.

Given the development of Aikido techniques, it is clear that Daito-ryu had a major influence on it. Takeda Sensei remained and taught at the Omoto center in Ayabe. According to my father, Takeda Sensei said he was given a fine sword by the Omoto people to thank him for his instruction.

How many different kinds of scrolls were given?

There were four scrolls. One with 118 techniques, one with 36 techniques, another with 84 techniques, and a “kaiden no maki” (certificate of mastery). There are some other scrolls, such as the secrets of Daito-ryu Aiki Nito-ryu.

Mr. Horikawa, in later years, became a student of yours, I believe.

Yes, six of Takeda Sensei’s students signed their names in my enrollment book. Mr. Kodo Horikawa, Mr. Hyogo Sasaki, and four others from Iwate Prefecture, including Seishiro Sato, became my students. These are my enrollment books. Here is Mr. Horikawa. The inscription reads: “November 11-12, 1950. Taught ‘shoho no te’, daiikkajo. 56 years old.” I think he probably studied up to daiyonkajo.

(Looking at the numerous enrollment books) It’s incredible how many people have studied with you!

After moving to Tokyo, I was out instructing half of the year. I would always teach alone without any assistant. So my skills were constantly being tested.

It looks like many of those who signed your enrollment books had high ranks in Judo, Kendo, Iaido, etc.

Yes. I taught at the National Police Reserve school, the “Yobitai,” which was the forerunner of the present riot police, and also at the Nakano Police University on January 17, 1952. The main instructor at that time was Juzo Kudo, a 9^th dan of Judo. He asked me to excuse them for not signing their names in the enrollment book so there is a blank page I left for them.