Interview with Morihiro Saito–Part 2 (1987)

This is the second part of a two-part interview. Read the first part here.

Sensei you taught Sunday morning classes at Hombu Dojo for quite a long time. When did you start teaching there?

Around 1961 when O-Sensei went to Hawaii I was already teaching there. For a time I taught on Mondays and Wednesdays but later it was only on Sundays. I think I stopped teaching there shortly after O-Sensei passed away. I would teach the ken and jo for about 15 minutes at the end of the Sunday class.

I believe there were no other teachers who taught the ken and jo at Hombu Dojo.

O-Sensei would scold anyone attempting to teach them and demand from whom they got permission to do so. He let nobody teach them.

It seems that some teachers who wished to learn the ken and jo but couldn’t went on to study Iaido or the Muso-ryu jo. About when did they begin doing that?

Actually, I was not conscious of the fact that they were studying iai to learn the sword and Muso-ryu to learn the jo. Some of those who demonstrate the jo at the All-Japan Aikido Demonstration at the Budokan do Muso-ryu. I can recognize it at a glance. They are free to practice whatever they want but they should demonstrate Aikido at Aikido demonstrations.

Did O-Sensei know that they were studying other arts?

I don’t think he knew. Although I don’t know when people started doing it, it seems that it began at quite an early date.

I believe that you are stating then that there is an Aiki Ken and an Aiki Jo. Would you elaborate on that please?

Aikido consists of taijutsu (body or weaponless techniques) and bukiwaza (weapon techniques) so we have to practice both. I have to teach at least the basic techniques from those the Founder left us. I am doing this because it is my duty to do so. It is more understandable for students if I explain multiple-attack techniques through the sword rather than taijutsu. I cannot explain and have them understand true Aikido well unless I explain the sword through taijutsu.

There are shomen (frontal) attacks in Aikido. Do they come from sword techniques?

They existed in the old jujutsu schools. If you do taijutsu in Aikido from these attacks you can also handle the sword in the same way. Although I don’t know where they originated from, there are shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, and tsuki (thrusts) in both sword and jujutsu techniques.

The Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo were introduced internationally for the first time through your five volumes entitled “Traditional Aikido.” Would you tell us how you came to publish them?

Although many books had been published, there was no book which introduced the techniques I was taught. I was asked to leave them in the form of a book by various people here and there. Then I wrote the books with the permission of Doshu. However, the explanation of Aikido techniques would not be complete if only ken and jo movements were covered so I also included taijutsu. At first the books were supposed to be published through Kodansha with the introduction of a Mr. Kataoka of Tohoku Gakuin University in Sendai, but Mr. Sugawara of the Minato Research Company asked me to let him publish my book. He emphasized that he would respect the contents of the book as they were. Since I hadn’t any contract with Kodansha yet I went up to Sendai on a night train on the same day to see Mr. Katakura and told him about the situation. I got permission from him and then published the book through Minato Research. However a certain teacher of Hombu Dojo asked me to stop publishing the series and so I stopped writing them after the fifth volume came out. When I went to the Hombu Dojo to present my third volume, I was asked until when I would continue to publish the series and told not to continue. Although I didn’t know the reason for this order, I said I understood and stopped writing the series after the fifth volume.

There is a traditional method of teaching Aikido where a teacher shows a technique rapidly while his students watch him and then imitate as best they can. This method may have some merits but it is hard for students to learn techniques. You use a methodology where you start out with basic techniques explaining them from various angles. Then you have students repeat the techniques and then break them down again. It is very easy to learn since they are taught as series. How did you come to teach in this way?

O-Sensei used to say that those teachers who were produced in the Iwama Dojo were the best in Japan. The Iwama Dojo was traditionally the Dojo where outstanding teachers were formed. Tohei Sensei and Kisshomaru Sensei trained here and Shioda Sensei also came here with his family. So given this tradition it would be embarrassing if those who are trained at this dojo don’t become top teachers. Thus I want my students to do their best to preserve this tradition. How can they teach techniques unless they themselves learn them correctly? I instruct them strictly because they are going to become teachers. If they practice the art only for themselves that’s up to them, but in order to become a teacher you have to divide and organize the techniques correctly. I am doing my best using the limited intelligence I have.

I’ve noticed that since there are few foreign trainees coming to Japan who speak Japanese you often give explanations using gestures.

I use gestures also for Japanese to a certain extent. There are many things I can’t explain through words. As O-Sensei often said, “It is not possible to explain through the spoken or written word.” So gestures are definitely necessary. I suppose I have come to use more gestures since foreigners started coming to Iwama.

In comparison with other dojo, a larger number of techniques are practiced in the Iwama Dojo even excluding ken and jo practice.

The techniques are more numerous here. If oyowaza (applied techniques) and henkawaza (varied techniques) are included the number of techniques increases several-fold. There are upward, downward, inward, outward, right and left techniques. The Founder taught me that the number of techniques was to be increased this way.

Were there many kuden (oral teachings) when O-Sensei taught taijutsu?

Yes, there were. I consider any point he made while teaching a kuden. In the book by O-Sensei entitled Budo, he uses the term “kojutsu” which means “to transmit or instruct through words.” He demonstrated his techniques before us in kata. So I could understand what O-Sensei was trying to say when I read that book. I didn’t know at all about the book until Aiki News discovered it. I was surprised and pleased to see it because the basic techniques described are exactly what we are doing. Through this book you can understand what great improvements O-Sensei made, the extent to which he researched his techniques and the historical progression of O-Sensei’s technique. I understood for the first time how he changed each technique rationally and also what he meant when he said that true Aikido techniques were developed after the war in Iwama and that those which existed before that were not Aikido. The techniques before the war were also splendid but he continued improving the art and created the wonderful Aikido we know. I can clearly say that the Iwama period was the time when Aikido was perfected. I can tell that by looking at the book Budo. It is important as a document from the pre-war period. There is much we have to learn from it. The book is also important for purposes of instruction, research and the development of Aikido. My viewpoint is that I must preserve this tradition. I became more confident after seeing the book Budo. I had been criticized a lot but it validated the things I had been doing. Surprisingly enough, I found out that these techniques are quite rational after carefully studying them. I am deeply grateful to O-Sensei.

Did O-Sensei show techniques in series?

He devoted himself to his own study of the art rather than thinking of his students. He would suddenly come up with a logical idea and have us put it to the test. As I look back on it, the brain of the Founder was like a computer. We learned techniques in series. When a two-hand grab technique was introduced the following techniques would all begin with the same grab. There were many practices like that.

So your method of teaching in series came from that?

Of course O-Sensei’s way of teaching was extremely helpful. I thought that in order to have students quickly understand, teaching techniques in series would be better. There are various ways. For example, for ikkyo there are techniques such as shomen ikkyo, yokomen ikkyo, munadori ikkyo, ryokata ikkyo, etc. There are many nikyo techniques too like shomen nikyo, yokomen nikyo, and so forth. Or from the shomen attack you can do ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, and yonkyo. It is easier for students to understand in this way and it also will help them execute variations if I teach techniques in series from various angles. I can also teach parts of many techniques. I have tried a lot of different ways. I try to find ways which work well for students. In any event, since people are busy nowadays not like it was in the old days, I have them learn techniques quickly.

Will there be any new series of ken, jo, or taijutsu techniques in the future?

I have been taking various notes of series at seminars. Some of the content is new. There are teaching methods for having students learn techniques. This includes things like suburi series. I use this method in the morning class in Iwama now. There are many ways of dealing with a chokuzuki (direct thrust). From the right, left, from above or below. You can use the opposite end of the jo. Unless you have various responses for different situations you will be at a disadvantage. You will be unable to handle certain situations unless you think in advance what you will do when in right or left hanmi, when you are off balance, or when in a low or high position. You don’t necessarily have to move your body to receive the jo. There are some situations where you cannot move. In such cases you have to parry it sideways. There are many ways for taijutsu as well.

You use names for techniques when you teach the jo and ken. Did O-Sensei do that as well?

No, he never used any names for weapons techniques. There weren’t that many names for taijutsu either. Hombu Dojo created many names after the war. It’s all right to assign names to techniques but if the system is too complicated it creates problems. I guess that if you teach in a school system you come to need names. I think the system Hombu Dojo is using now is the most appropriate for them. But we don’t use terms such as “kotehineri” (wrist twist) or “kotemawashi” (wrist turn) at all.

Was the term “ikkajo” still in use when you entered the dojo in 1946?

O-Sensei would use the term “ikkyo” sometimes. It became “ikkyo” without my realizing it. I think it’s fine to use this term since Aikido itself entered a new phase.

Did O-Sensei keep an “eimeiroku” (student enrollment book) like Sokaku Takeda Sensei did when you entered the dojo?

Yes, I remember he kept one. O-Sensei told me often about the period when he trained in Daito-ryu. When he and I would work in the fields, were drinking tea or took meals together or sometimes when I would massage his shoulders or tap his legs he would tell me various stories.

Did he also talk about techniques?

No, not much. Other subjects came out naturally. O-Sensei had a deep relationship with Daito-ryu.

Going back to the subject of the old days, I believe everyone had to work very hard after the war and had no leisure time to practice martial arts. But in your case, Sensei, since you worked for Japan National Railways you had many opportunities to be with O-Sensei.

The happiest thing for me was the Founder coming to live in Iwama. The Akazawa family was somehow involved in the Founder acquiring the land. He and the family knew each other through the Omoto religion. Mr. Seiichi Seko and several others collected funds. Ueshiba Sensei’s achievement in making the Aikikai this large was great but you won’t be able to write a true history of Aikido without studying those financiers who supported him in his efforts. The true history involves more than techniques. To my knowledge the most important supporter of Ueshiba Sensei was Mr. Kinya Fujita. Then there was Mr. Seko. He will be able to tell you many interesting things.

Would you tell us the purpose of your new homestay program?

You cannot instruct properly unless the teacher and student maintain a family-like relationship. I was always treated like a member of O-Sensei’s family and often ate and worked with him so. I was taught what could not be taught at the dojo when I was with him. One hour at the dojo a day is a short time. Since I served him from morning to night he taught me many different things. That’s why I believe it is more worthwhile for students to live with their teacher in family-like surroundings. My daughters have licences in flower arrangement and the tea ceremony, my wife’s sister is a calligraphy teacher and my son is a professional Japanese chef. So our family collectively can teach them Japanese cooking, flower arrangement, tea ceremony and calligraphy. I want them to study not only Aikido but also various aspects of Japanese culture in a family-like atmosphere.

Can Japanese also participate in this program?

Let’s see. I guess it’s okay for Japanese also. I really don’t set any limitations. However, not too many people can stay here at once. I can allow some people to sleep in the dojo. People often come to the dojo for a week with a letter of introduction. But I can’t teach anything in one week. They go back to their countries without understanding anything.

How can those who wish to participate in this homestay plan apply?

I cannot accept them unless they have a letter of introduction. However, if they contact us through Aiki News I can accept them. I can accommodate up to about ten persons. Also, they should stay for a minimum of ten days. There are many people who wish to visit the dojo while visiting Japan as tourists. But stays of only a few days are meaningless. It takes one week to practice suburi alone. I can’t teach kumijo or kumitachi to those who cannot even do suburi.

In order to improve the future development of Aikido what do you think teachers of Aikido should do?

I think they should continue to polish their own Aikido. The Aikikai is a company which sells Aikido techniques. Any company which sells something always tries to improve the product in order not to lose in competition with other companies. All of the teachers of the Aikikai have become great and if they continue to study Aikido throughout their lives and teach an ever-improving art everyone will be pleased. I hope they won’t involve themselves too much in politics but rather think of O-Sensei’s vision. One of his teachings was that we should all unite like a family since we were all created by the kamisama. People have various viewpoints and so I think it’s all right to have many organizations. If only they can get together to have friendly practice. It’s not a good thing if they become absorbed in politics and forget about Aikido practice. Also, they should not forget that there is an Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo in Aikido. Teachers must teach in a way that wouldn’t disappoint O-Sensei. If they change the name of the art they can do anything they want, Muso-ryu or whatever. However, if they teach the art as Aikido, they should study it more. If everyone began practicing Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo all of the sporting good stores in Japan would have to change the size of the bokken and jo. If they didn’t they would all be broken. (Laughter) I read something in the “Aikido Newspaper” published by Hombu where it says that “someone from Osaka demonstrated the ken and 31-movement jo which were transmitted directly from the Founder.” The 31-jo kata was the name I adopted! (Laughter) I explained how O-Sensei taught the ken and jo and where my ken and jo came from. This interview should embarrass people who publish books which imitate those I have written. I named all of the suburi movements.

Sensei, do you have anything you would like to say in conclusion?

I don’t have anything particular to say but I want to greatly emphasize the book Budo as well as what 0-Sensei left us. After World War II, O-Sensei worked very hard to complete Aikido and bequeathed it to us. I want to preserve that Aikido. Even if I am not skilled I will preserve the tradition. It has always been my belief that basic techniques are meaningless unless they are standardized. If they are not standardized the term “basic” should not be used. We should standardize what the Founder left us as basic techniques. Then people can continue from there with their own studies. Then individuals can create their own great Aikido. This will be how Aikido develops.

This is the second part of a two-part interview. Read the first part here.