Interview with Shigenobu Okumura (1983), Part II

Aikido originated in Japan and spread throughout the world. But there is a viewpoint which holds that foreigners cannot understand the true essence of Aikido. What is your view?

Well, I think foreigners can understand the spirit of Aikido. It is a creative power. I mean not only the form, in other words, the phenomenal aspect which is throwing and pinning, but also the deeper aspect. If they can just understand this… In my opinion, comparatively speaking, French people tend to want to pursue oriental things spiritually. They have their unique perception. However, Germans or Americans understand the physical side. For example, we call practice “keiko,” but the word “renshu” also exists. Do you know the difference between “renshu” and “keiko?” Nowadays, they have come to have the same meaning. But, in Japan, we use the word “keiko” to refer to mental things and “renshu” to physical things. The original meaning of “keiko” is “to think of olden times.” In China of today, “keiko” has only this meaning. Why do you think that thinking of olden times means “keiko?” It is basic. It is the basic form. It is easy to learn kotegaeshi or shihonage, but it was very hard for the person who created these techniques. Those who learn afterwards find it easier to accomplish. One should go back to the original roots and repeat them. That is why we say “thinking of olden times.” We enter with the form and depart from the form. Since long ago, in budo there have been three steps, “shu,” “ha,” “ti,” which mean “to preserve the form,” “break the form,” “separate from the form.” The form is preserved in the

Also, there is the word “dojo.” This is different from “gymnasium.” The training place of Buddhist priests is called the “dojo.” In Mt. Hiei, there is a place called “Kompon Dojo.” A dojo is a place where the spirit is trained. That’s why we bow properly before entering the dojo. Nobody bows when playing volleyball in the gymnasium, do they? Because it is a dojo, etiquette is very strict. Nowadays, young people feel reluctant to bow. They say bowing is feudalistic. The dojo is not the place to practice technique, but rather to improve the spirit. The spirit should be consistently emphasized. When you pour water into a glass standing upright, it can contain water. However, if the glass is upside down, it can’t hold water… The present education process is like forcing water to be poured into an upside down glass. Bowing before entering the dojo is like turning the glass upright. In other words, changing the spirit, emptying one’s mind. Bowing is like an on/off switch. If one empties his mind, one can accept a great deal… you can absorb anything. In this respect, bowing is the best thing. At least the critical attitude will disappear and a receptive attitude will emerge. We say, “courtesy in the beginning and courtesy at the end.” Otherwise, we cannot learn all of the techniques. That’s why it has long been the case that etiquette has been strict in terms of efficiency.

Do you eat brown rice?

Yes, I do. When my wife is busy, I sometimes steam it myself. When I was a prisoner of war in Siberia for three and half years, I noticed that Russian people don’t eat white bread but rather brown bread. I think that is their source of vitality.

They don’t eat polished rice. If you compare Russian people who eat brown bread and American people who eat white bread, the Americans will no doubt lose in the 21st century. (Laughter) In kanji, with as its left character radical becomes “kasu” (sake lees). (Laughter) But recently, in America food habits habits have been changing in favor of natural foods.

We understand that Ueshiba Sensei went to Manchuria every year.

Yes, after Manchuria was established. He used to go there to get away from Japan. You know of Hideki Tojo. When he was a provost marshall in Shinkyo (in China) before he returned to Japan, he adopted Aikido as part of the military police training. He selected Mr. Tomiki and Mr. Ohba as shihan. He himself did Aikido. He practiced a lot.

Did O-Sensei go as far as Peking?

Yes, he went to Peking, too. He saw various Chinese martial arts. There are good martial arts in China. Ueshiba Sensei was impressed by them. Chinese came to our Kenkoku University and demonstrated various bujutsu. There is a wonderful bujutsu where you swing about a Chinese broad sword.

Who did Ueshiba Sensei go to Peking with?

I was a student at the time, so I don’t know the details. Maybe Mr. Shioda or Mr. Inoue. How about asking Mr. Yonekawa? Who have you interviewed?

Yonekawa Sensei, Akazawa Sensei, Tomiki Sensei, Shioda Sensei, Mochizuki Sensei, Kamata Sensei, Seiseki Abe Sensei, Saito Sensei and Doshu…

Have you talked to Tenryu (the famous sumo wrestler)?

No, he is not in good health now.

Oh, yes. He is not well. Tenryu is our senior. Shirata Sensei and Iwata Sensei are old uchideshi. How about Inoue Sensei? He is Ueshiba Sensei’s nephew.

It’s hard for us to meet him directly. We are told that he won’t see us unless we bring two persons who knew him in the past. One time, Yonekawa Sensei and Akazawa Sensei went to see him with us. But, we couldn’t ask him any questions directly.

Really. He may not feel relaxed unless you take someone like Mr. Akazawa and Mr. Yonekawa. He knows O-Sensei’s personal life well.

We talked to Hisa Sensei once. But, his criticism of O-Sensei was too strong so we couldn’t publish the interview.

Oh, I see. I think there is a lot of criticism of Ueshiba Sensei. After all, he is a human being. So, that kind of thing happens… How about Mr. Hirai of Korindo in Shiba?

Yes, we wrote to him and called him but were told that he was too busy.

Mr. Hirai was working for the office of the Hombu Dojo when we were students. He received a rank from the Dai Nihon Butokukai which I mentioned before. How about Koichi Tohei?

I directly received shodan and nidan from Tohei Sensei. But I haven’t seen him for eight or nine years since he left Hombu.

After O-Sensei died, both Kisshomaru Sensei and Mr. Tohei took a leading role… I don’t know the cause of the separation even though I was with them… Their wives are sisters… Do you know Mr. Sunadomari in Kumamoto? He wrote a book entitled “Aikido no Kokoro o Motomete” (In Search of the Aikido Spirit). He is an Omoto believer. So he has many followers. I have been there myself. He is providing a fine education. Two years ago, he gave a demonstration in Tokyo and I had an invitation. He gives many demonstrations in various parts of Kyushu centered around Kumamoto. Mr. Sunadomari was an uchideshi when we were students. It would be a good idea to go to Kumamoto someday. The book he wrote reflects the Omoto spirit. I think it will be instructive for you.

We understand that there is a book entitled “The Founder of Aikido” by Mr. Sunadomari.

That book was written by Mr. Sunadomari’s brother. I’m referring to the younger brother.

How does the Omoto religion view the Aikikai?

Well, they established the Dai Nihon Budo Senyokai as a part of Omoto activities and left it in the hands of Ueshiba Sensei. Ueshiba Sensei himself was an enthusiastic believer… I think they used Ueshiba Sensei for purposes of spreading the religion implying that one could become a genius like Morihei Ueshiba if one believed in the religion.

What is the importance of the practice of weapons, jo and bokken, in present-day Aikido?

Aikido deals with any kind of weapons bare-handed. Without a weapon, you pin the opponent who is wielding a weapon. That is the principle of Aikido. O-Sensei showed (sword) movements as an extension of the body, but didn’t move like in Kendo or Judo. All weapons are extensions of the hands. The movement in shihonage becomes the movement of a sword. If you put down the sword, it becomes shihonage. I think in Aikido if you carelessly put too much emphasis on jojutsu or kenjutsu it will become the other way around. In my opinion, in Aikido, you should persistently deal with any kind of weapon bare-handed. Those who want to learn jo should go to a jo dojo. Those who want to learn the sword should go to a ken dojo. There are experts for each. From a world view, bu equals love as described by O-Sensei, we shouldn’t cut or thrust the opponent. You pin your partner only by neutralizing his violence. I think it’s a good idea for those who are learning Aikido to practice other bujutsu. But if they are to practice one martial art, it might be a good idea for them to study Aikido. If they have a chance, they should practice all of the arts. Each martial art has its own features. Even though you study Kendo, you won’t become able to throw or pin.

What about Judo? They thrown and pin. We come to the question of the differences between Judo and Aikido. Technically, they are similar. The difference is that Aikido doesn’t have any competition. Technically, in Aikido, we don’t use foot techniques. Do you know why? In Aikido, you and your partner are separated. But in Judo or Sumo wrestling they grapple with each other. Kano Sensei wondered how he could make Japanese budo into a European sport and took out all the dangerous techniques. There are rules to determine winning and losing and where only safe techniques are preserved. The opponents begin to fight after grappling. In Judo, techniques involving arm and finger joints are prohibited. They can’t do shihonage. It’s too dangerous to use in a match. Also, they can’t touch their opponent’s face and they can’t use atemi (strikes), nor can they kick. They have to grapple. Judo is practiced under these four conditions. They use only safe techniques. In Aikido, you are separated from your partner, so your foot cannot reach him. Thus, you have to use your hands. In Aikido, there are only hand techniques but no foot techniques. In Judo, because you are grappling your arms are stationary, so there are only foot techniques. That’s why Aikido is called “separated Judo.”

In Tomiki theory, Judo is divided into two sections. There is “separated Judo” and there is “grappling Judo.” “Separated Judo” is Aikido and “grappling Judo” is Kodokan Judo. When you practice both separated Judo and grappling Judo, it becomes complete Judo. This is the Tomiki system. This was the system we were taught when we were university students. For Mr. Tomiki, the present Aikido and Kodokan Judo are doing only half. However, when one engages in a life and death encounter, nobody grapples with each other. By the time they pass each other, the technique has already been executed. Grappling is possible only because kicking and arm joint techniques are prohibited. In reality, as soon as you grapple you will be knocked over. In bujutsu, we don’t grapple. The biggest difference between Judo and Aikido is that, in the latter, the opponents are separated not grappling, and when one does ground work, he pins his opponent face down. In Judo, one pins his opponent face up, but in Aikido we don’t. The reason is that in the old days when people were arrested, they pinned them face down and bound them with rope. The reason the opponent is face up in Judo is because of a rule. Sports have rules. However, in reality, nobody pins his opponent face up. If they do, they will be hit in their vital spots. But if you pin your opponent face down, he can’t hit you. That’s why in Aikido we immobilize him face down. In this way, I think we should separate Aikido from Judo.

Sensei, are you familiar with the old Asahi newspaper film of O-Sensei?

Yes, I am. Comparing the technique of Ueshiba Sensei in his latter years with that of the film, he himself said, “My technique was poor then.” Many of his techniques involved repelling opponents backward. In other words, clashing was involved. In Aikido, we shouldn’t clash with each other. We should pass by each other. Have you ever head the word “aiuchi?” What do you think would happen if two experts passed by each other in the street. In the case of “aiuchi” (mutual striking), both of them would be dead. In reality, there would be difference in their abilities, one of them would be hurt. But if experts pass by each other, neither of them will be hurt. This is called “aiuchi.” A person called Sekiun Harigaya in the Edo period first mentioned this, “The essence of Japanese budo is aiuchi.” In any event, this was supposed to be an ideal. In Aikido, the best outcome is for two people to pass each other in a flash, the encounter immediately being ended. Neither is killed. Tesshu Yamaoka progressed from Ittoryu to Mutoryu. Despite the strenuous practice of Kendo, he abandoned his sword. When one attacks you with a sword suddenly, you seize his sword in a flash with empty hands—that was supposed to be the best Kendo. It’s hard to reach that stage. Anyway, killing is the worst possible result.

Sensei, I understand you have a full time job in addition to your teaching duties?

Yes, I am an accountant by profession. Actually, because I had a job I was able to practice Aikido up until now. If you do Aikido as a professional, it’s difficult, because you have to worry about making a living and taking care of your family. It’s really hard to run this Ueshiba dojo. In the old days, there were feudal lords and shihan whom they employed. They lived on a salary. After the Meiji Restoration, the army and navy protected the budoka. The Ministry of Education included martial arts as a part of the regular curriculum. After we lost the war, Kendoka and Judoka were abandoned. They were unable to make a living. The modern-day equivalent to the old feudal lords and military are the large companies. The Kodokan is supported by contributions from large companies. Otherwise, they couldn’t operate with only tuition fees from students. If the government could help them, that would be good, but it cannot. That’s a problem. O-Sensei was not good at establishing organizations in terms of running a dojo. The present Doshu, Kisshomaru Sensei, is much better than him in that sense. When O-Sensei would turn up at the dojo, his deshi would immediately gather around him and then disappear when he left. It was not possible to establish an organization. There weren’t any good clerks among his deshi. An organization needs organization. Foreigners will become confused if there are too many schools of Aikido or Karate. They don’t know which to choose. Now the time has come to combine all of the separate schools. In this sense, I expect much of this Aikido federation. With it, there is still some possibility of combining different branches of Aikido.

That idea may work in Japan, but it may be difficult to implement abroad.

Yes. Do you have any ideas about how to deal with this situation?

If Hombu Dojo were to publish books translated into English and French and allow foreigners to become Hombu Dojo shihan … For example, there are some foreigners who speak Japanese well and have a deep understanding of Japanese culture. I think these people can play a role in connecting Japan and foreign countries. Or how about sending young Japanese of university age abroad? I think that young people might be more flexible in accepting foreign cultures.

Yes… well, young Japanese of today have only specialized skills, yet little general education in Japanese culture. The things young Japanese abroad ask their parents to send them are books about Japanese history. For example, they don’t know much about Shinto or Buddhism when asked. Foreigners may think Japanese don’t know anything about their own country. It’s not enough if they are only good at English and don’t know about Japan. I think they should know about Japanese shrines and temples, popular beliefs, manners, customs and so on. However, they don’t receive such an education in present-day Japan. That’s why when they go abroad they feel like reading books on Japanese history. It is not until they go abroad that they begin to want to study about Japan, Aikido, tea ceremony, or flower arrangement.

Japan has some bad aspects, but its good aspects should be emphasized. When the Japanese spirit is expressed in a martial context, it becomes the techniques of Aikido. I feel that this spirit of harmony should be emphasized. Harmony means to become friends, but nowadays, people are suspicious of each other. For this reason, they don’t say what they really think. If this suspicion disappeared, we could trust each other. The answer lies in physical contact. While people train, they gradually become friends. That’s my idea.

By the way, what do you think the secret of the development of Japan is? In Japan people are loyal. What do you think the origin of loyalty is?

Japan doesn’t emphasize the individual, but rather the group.

Yes, we emphasize the group. In the old days, names included a “no” (possessive particle) such as “Minamoto no Sanetomo” or “Taira no Kiyomori.” The home is more important than the individual. Marriages involve families rather than individuals. There is a term “bunshin bunrei” (body-part, spirit-part). We are always parts of the whole, not individuals. This is the concept. That’s why we have strong loyalty towards the company we work for. Also, the company looks after its employees all of their lives. In Aikido, the center is extremely important. We shouldn’t forget our roots. There are many circular movements. If the center is not fixed, there is no stability. Once you establish the center you should never move your pivot foot regardless of how many times you turn. The center should never be moved. If the Japanese viewpoint, which involves centripetal thought, is expressed in techniques, they become the techniques of Aikido. I think that both generative power of the high level of development of present-day Japan and the origin of Aiki techniques are one in the same. After all, this is the spirit of “musubi,” the Japanese world view.

We appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us today, Sensei! Thank you very much.

Read the first part here.