Interview with Shigenobu Okumura (1983), Part I

The following is the first of two-part interview with Shigenobu Okumura Sensei, a Hombu Dojo instructor which took place on May 14, 1983. Read the second part here.

Although I was born in Hokkaido, I went to Dairen (major city in Japanese-controlled Manchuria before the War) when I was three. After that, I went through the public school system and also graduated from the University in Manchuria. My mother entered the Aikido dojo in 1933, eight years before I started my training. She is senior to me in Aikido by eight years. At that time, I was practicing Kendo so I really wasn’t interested in Aikido. Whenever I went to the dojo, I saw my mother doing simple suwari waza. After I entered the university and studied with Tomiki Sensei and O-Sensei, I decided to practice only Aikido.

Was Tomiki Sensei the main teacher at that time?

Yes, that’s right. Tomiki Sensei usually taught. Ueshiba Sensei came to Manchuria from Tokyo every fall. Sometimes he came to our university and sometimes he came at the invitation of the Manchurian government. In our university, Aikido was a required subject. Our university was probably the first one among all the government universities to have this requirement. Kendo, Judo, Aikido, all three were required subjects.

Were there matches at that time?

No. It was long after the war that Tomiki Sensei started talking about matches. In the Kenkoku University period, he was doing the exact same training as Hombu Dojo. After the war, he developed an ideology intended to convert Aikido into a sport. I was opposed to the idea of converting Aikido into a sport and so I did not agree with Tomiki Sensei’s view. Although I was his student, I opposed him to the end in this point.

Did Tomiki Sensei hold that viewpoint at that time also?

Well, he was doing the same as Hombu. After the war, he took the position that it was necessary to transform Aikido into a sport in order to modernize it. We took the position that Aikido could be modernized without turning it into a sport. For example, in the case of zazen or iai, you can’t talk about winners and losers. In Aikido, one can proceed at his own pace, thus, it is equivalent to a “moving zen.” You can’t talk about who is first or who is second in these things. If anything, those who train religiously are the best… those who overcome themselves. There is that tendency now in general. Like cycling and jogging. Cycling is different from a bicycle race. Cycling is something which the family does together. Jogging is not running a marathon. One runs the whole distance at his own pace. These activities are becoming popular. These new things, which are not sports and which have no competition, are achieving popularity. However, like Judo and Kendo, Aikido is following the opposite course toward sports where there are losers and winners. What people are seeking now is something which doesn’t have such matches. This tendency is widespread.

Aikido has two aspects: a spiritual aspect and a technical aspect. What sort of spiritual practices did you engage in at that time?

Since O-Sensei was involved with the Omoto religion, Shinto ideology played a strong part. Shinto ideology is, in one word, “musubi.” Ueshiba Sensei explained Aikido using this theory. When one listened to him talk, it was always about the gods. Those who hadn’t read the ancient “Kojiki” text couldn’t make much sense of what he said. If you write “musubi” in Kanji, it can be expressed as “wago,” “wa,” or “tooitsu.” Musubi has many meanings (in both noun and verb forms). For example, “to tie a string,” “to get married,” and also, the “last bout of the day” (musubi no ichiban). “Musu” is to create and “hi” means “spirit.” Thus, it becomes “creative spirit.” So ladies like yourselves (referring to staff members Kimura and Kudo) are called “musume.” Those who are capable of giving birth to children are called “rausume.” In other words, it is women who are capable of creation. We call light, “hi,” the sun, “hi,” fire, “hi” and spirit “hi.” We refer to all of these sacred things as “hi.” That’s why we human beings are called “hito.” We possess the holy spirit. In this manner, the spirit remains in the old words. Ueshiba Sensei explained this “nusubi” theory. If you write musubi in a way that young people can understand, you have “wago.” In Chinese characters, “wago” and in classical Japanese “musubi.”

Was the technique at that time the same as that published in the book entitled “Budo” published in 1938?

Yes. At that time it was called “Aiki Bujutsu” not “Aikido.” In 1943, rank came to be issued by the “Dai Nihon Butokukai” [Greater Japan Martial Arts Association]. None of the heads of schools issued rank. This was the case in 1943, 1944, and 1945. The Dai Nihon Butokukai was established by the government and issued ranks for Aiki, Yumi, and Kendo, etc. The Association wasn’t directly controlled by the government, it was a foundation.

Was it then that the Budo Sen’yokai disappeared?

Yes. Everything was absorbed by the Association. However, when Japan lost the war, the GHQ came and disbanded the Dai Nihon Budokai. It turned out that we couldn’t practice Kendo, Aikido, or Judo. Under the occupation, until the San Francisco Treaty was signed, we couldn’t practice openly. However, there were many Judo enthusiasts among American officers. (Laughter) The people in the Kodokan emphasized the sport aspect of Judo by saying that Judo was not a budo but a sport. Then, gradually it was overlooked and the GHQ became rather loose. But, Kendo and Aikido did not receive the same treatment. Kendo, like Judo, came to be called “Shinai Kyogi” (Bamboo-sword Competition). That’s why it gradually became a sport. Ueshiba Sensei was in Iwama. In Tokyo, it was very strict, since Iwama was the countryside, the GHQ people didn’t come. (Laughter) Before their influence reached that far, the occupation ended. Ueshiba Sensei was farming in Iwama and he called the Aikido Dojo, “Aiki En” (Aiki Farm).

When I came back from Siberia in 1948, this area (Wakamatsu-cho) was all burned down. People who had nowhere to go since they had been burned out of their houses drifted into the dojo. At that time, there were something more than ten families living there. When I came back, there were still three families left. It wasn’t a good atmosphere for training at all. It was because of Doshu Kisshomaru Sensei that the dojo was saved. Every time a fire bomb was dropped, they put out the fire using buckets in order to save the dojo. Around 1948, there was no more rationed rice. There was nothing to eat except sweet potatoes and sugar. Tokyo University students attempted to move as little as possible. If they moved they would expend their energy. When I came back from Siberia, I thought I couldn’t eat rice if I stayed in Tokyo so I went up to Hokkaido. Anyway, it was that kind of period. There were no people training. We couldn’t intentionally make ourselves hungry by training.

About when did the situation begin to change?

It was after the Korean War began. The Japanese economy started to prosper as if it had been given a “shot in the arm.” The Vietnam War was also a contributing factor. America started ordering a lot of things from Japan because they were cheap. They even ordered coffins. The GHQ wanted to establish a Japanese military in Japan but because of the 9th Article of the Constitution it was not possible. However, they set up the Metropolitan Police Reserve Corps. The reason for this was that all of the American soldiers went to Korea and were thus absent from Japan. The Reserve Corps was eventually transformed into the National Security Force and finally the Self-Defense Forces. That’s the way events transpired.

Did the training of the Reserve Corps include Aikido practice?

No. Aikido techniques were originally self-defense oriented, not for the art of killing. There are four levels of winning. First, to win by killing. Second, to win, although not by killing, but still resulting in inflicting injury. Third, capturing the opponent alive without any injury to either party. Fourth, where there is no contact and thus no opponent. To kill someone, you can cut or choke or strike or kick. To injure someone, you can avoid inflicting a mortal wound. However, what can you do to only block violence while avoiding injury to either side? For example, what would you do if an elementary school child attacked you with a knife? Would you kill the child? Probably you would avoid the attack or run away. What if you neutralized the violence by taking away the knife and pinned him? To capture the opponent alive, there is technically no way but to pin. If you kick him or choke him, the opponent will be injured. Thus, to neutralize violence without injury to your opponent you have to pin him. If you can’t immobilize him because he struggles you first make the task easier by throwing him and then pinning him.

There aren’t any kicking or thrusting techniques in Aikido. Dealing with violence with bare hands is Aikido. I might say that Aikido is the art most respectful of human life. This is the Aikido spirit. We say “bu” is love, don’t we? If we consider bu equal to love then our only recourse is to pin. The reason that the police don’t adopt Karate is that they are not supposed to finish off the criminal. They can go no further than arresting him. On the other hand, they shouldn’t be injured by the criminal. They have no choice but to pin in order to avoid injury to themselves and their opponent. If they teach Karate to the police, they will go too far.

After the San Francisco treaty was signed, people were able to practice budo openly. Was it at that time that Hombu Dojo started to become active?

It was at the time that a French gymnastics teacher named Andre Nocquet entered the dojo that it became active. The mass media wouldn’t pay much attention when only Japanese were practicing but when a foreigner came they took notice. When the Frenchman came to the dojo to train, a lot of journalists came. Japanese have a complex as a result of losing the war. They tend to think everything from the past is bad. Once a foreigner says something positive about some aspect of the culture, they reevaluate it. For example, ukiyoe (pictures of everyday life popular in old Japan) or zazen (seated meditation) spread throughout Europe and came back to Japan. When Europeans started taking notice of these things, the Japanese again began to appreciate their value. The Japanese have that type of complex.

Who were the main teachers after the war?

Doshu was the head of the dojo and Koichi Tohei Sensei was the Chief Instructor for a period. The present Doshu worked for the “Osaka Trading Company” and was promoted up to Head of the General Affairs section. But he decided to run the dojo as a professional and so he quit his job. At that time, Mr. Shioda was very active in the Yoshinkan. We thought that there should be professionals at Hombu Dojo, too. The wife of the present Doshu and Mr. Tohei’s wife are sisters. Mr. Tohei was with us while O-Sensei was alive…

Anyway, Tohei Sensei started spreading Aikido in Hawaii and America.

Did you remember any particular episodes from the Kenkoku University period?

Well, for example, at that time, March 10th was the anniversary of the Japanese victory over the Russians at Hoten. For Japanese, it was “Army Day.” However, in Manchuria, after March 10th the snow would melt and turn roads into mud. At those times, we would pull cannons ourselves or used horses. After that day, we could no longer move the cannons. Before the 10th, all of the rivers and ground were frozen. So it was easy to transport arms. O-Sensei used to tell the unfortunate story of how after the 10th of March, they couldn’t make a detour and thus couldn’t do anything to prevent Kuropatkin (Aleksei Nikolaevich K., Russian Commander-in-Chief during the Russo-Japanese War) from making his escape to Harbin. O-Sensei had a great deal of physical stamina and he told us of how when he would run, many people would fall behind. Thus, he had to carry guns and packs for two or three of the dropouts. There was also the story of how he won the first prize in the interdivision bayonet competition. He was asked to remain in the army many times. But he refused explaining that even though one stayed in the army, unless he was a graduate of the military academy or war college, he could rise no higher than major. He didn’t like that idea because he would have liked to make a mark for himself in the military. The deshi of O-Sensei were all generals or lieutenant generals.

While O-Sensei was in the army, did he teach many people?

No, not yet. At that time, O-Sensei didn’t dream of becoming a martial arts’ expert. When he came back to Japan after the Russo-Japanese War, he went to Engaru in Hokkaido to cultivate the land taking along with a group from Wakayama Prefecture. At the beginning, he was merely a novice practicing because he enjoyed it. But he happened to meet Sokaku Takeda Sensei of Daito-ryu there and began practicing the art. That was the parent form of Aikido. In the spiritual realm, the influence of Omoto is particularly strong, while on the technical level the influence of Daito-ryu is very prominent.

Did you ever personally see Takeda Sensei?

No, I didn’t. I’ve seen his son Tokimune Takeda a couple of times. Sokaku Takeda Sensei, at that time, always moved around so one didn’t know where he was. He led the life of a wanderer. During the war, he died in Aomori Prefecture. I think if one wants to research Aikido, one should keep in mind the world view of Omoto-kyo which is one of the Shinto schools and, also, the fact that technically the influence of Daito-ryu in Aikido is very strong. However, there is an outlook on the world which holds that “bu” is love. Gradually, the rough techniques were dropped and the art became limited to throws and pins. The art became only for self-defense.

Some of O-Sensei’s deshi feel that the Founder was at his strongest before the war, while others believe that he was at his best after the war.

In the spiritual sense, the latter is true. Before the war, it was “one strike, one death blow.” He had to “kill.” The army, at that time, demanded it. Ueshiba Sensei hated that. Japanese martial arts are “shimbu bosatsu” (Lit., “god or kami-martial art—non-killing). The “bu” of “god or kami” doesn’t kill. Martial arts alone are not good for Japan. It is indispensable to have “roofs” (upper radicals of Chinese characters) such as “shin,” “sei,” “ten,” or “bun” over “bu.” “Bu” by itself will explode. Things proceed well when these “kami” or “holy spirits” correctly control “bu.” That’s why we say “martial arts for self-defense” (goshin bujutsu). “Bu” without the support of the “holy spirits” is not good.

Are you personally an Omoto believer?

No, I’m not. But if I’m asked what Aikido is, I think it is the martial expression of the “Japanese world view”—this is Aikido. The Japanese world view is in a word, “rausubi.” In the poetic realm, it becomes “waka” (a 31-syllable Japanese ode poem) or “haiku” (a 17-syllable poem). The martial expression of the Japanese spirit is the techniques of Aikido—the Japanese spirit. I would like foreigners to study the “Japanese spirit” more.

Even though the Japanese economy has developed to this extent, for me, the center is not stable. There is only superficial movement. For example, what rank do you think Ueshiba Sensei had in Aikido? Rank had nothing to do with him, did it? Jigoro Kano Sensei of Kodokan Judo didn’t have any rank. Foreigners often ask me why O-Sensei or Kano Sensei didn’t have any rank. They are the founders and there is no one who can be compared to them. They are the heads of schools. In both cases, there is only one head. Does the Emperor’s family have a family name? No, it doesn’t. The present Emperor’s name, Hirohito, is a given name. The Queens of England and Holland have family names, but the Japanese Emperor doesn’t. Why do you think this is so? They are the “roots” of the Japanese people. In olden times, everyone was given his family name by the Emperor. In other words, they are the “trunk of the tree.” Emperors are the only ones who do not need family names. In tea ceremony and flower arrangement, the heads of the school have no rank. Since they are unique, they don’t have to be distinguished. From olden times, there were emperors and shogun. The emperor represented the spiritual side and the shogun the materialistic side. So the shogun was appointed as the commander-in-chief by the emperor as a formality. Thus, the spirit was higher in terms of form. My Mongolian friend often tells me, “The tradition of Japanese emperors has continued for 124 generations so I thought the castle was really strong with a deep moat and high walls. I was surprised when I went to Kyoto and saw moats which look as though they can be easily forded and which have low walls. It’s amazing that this tradition has lasted 124 generations.” The Japanese Imperial Family doesn’t have anything to do with moats or castle walls. In Japan, the conception springs from a single source like the trunk and branches of a tree. Japanese work loyally for a company until they die and Japanese companies take care of their employees to the end.

What is the role of the present Ueshiba family?

It is the center and symbol of Aikido. Shioda Sensei and Tomiki Sensei both sprang from Ueshiba Sensei and it is my hope that they will once again unite with us. I told Tomiki Sensei that if he wanted to incorporate competitive forms in Aikido he should do it under a different name other than Aikido. Because it is called “Aikido,” people become confused. If a different name were used, it becomes a different art so there is no problem. The same is true for Kano Sensei. He studied Kito-ryu and Shinyo-ryu but he developed a new school calling it “Kodokan Judo.” I told Mr. Tomiki that if he practiced his art under a name other than Aikido, then I would completely approve of his activities. However, if a different name is used, people won’t come to the dojo because it doesn’t have “name value.” I told him he was unfair. I went to talk to Mr. Tomiki many times. It was hard for me being between Tomiki Sensei and Ueshiba Sensei.

What is your view regarding Daito-ryu which formed the technical background of Aikido?

I think that Daito-ryu should remain as an old “yawara” (martial art). Even though Kito-ryu and Shinyo-ryu survived, there hasn’t been a confrontation with the Kodokan. I’m hoping that it will be preserved.

The bujutsu which Takeda Sensei taught was Daito-ryu Jujutsu. Was Ueshiba Sensei’s old form of Aikido called Daito-ryu Jujutsu?

Yes. Sensei used many names. It was called Daito-ryo Aiki Jujutsu and it was called Aiki-bujustu when we were learning it. There was a time when it was called Aikijutsu and Ueshiba-ryu Jujutsu. A long time ago when I was a child, there was a writer called Shinsaku Hirata in the “Shonen Kurabu” published by Kodansha. He wrote a novel called “Shinsenkan Takachiho” (The New Battleship Takachiho). In it, there was a scene where a boy called Fujio repeatedly threw many Russians with a Jujutsu called “Ueshiba-ryu Jujutsu.” At that time Aikido was called Ueshiba-ryu Jujutsu. This novel was published about 1930 or 1931 before the war. The writer Shinsaku Hirata was a senior Aikidoka.

Read the second part here.